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Okay, so yesterday evening I was out in the car with the husband, doing some shopping in Wichita Falls, TX. Got in a check, paid some bills, it's all good, right?
So we're driving along, and I see this billboard ad for a radio station with a little happy-face sun on it and the slogan "just for kids." Since I have two small kids, I was immediately intrigued. I exchanged glances with my husband and we switched over to the station to give it a listen, to see if it would be appropriate for when we have to travel in the car with kiddies.
The first thing I hear is a group of children singing in chorus. A moment later, I realize it's a Christian station, and they're singing about Adam and how children are like him, all beloved by God and given life in the same way, etc. Now, I am Christian, so this doesn't bother me overly. I don't believe that the expression of God's beauty and power by man is only evident in things that praise God directly, though, so I tend to shy away from "music with a message" sorts of things as my sole listening pleasure. The occasional tape is one thing, but a whole radio station is generally just a case of way too much at any one time.
Still, there's nothing wrong in having nice little songs about God's love and children being special in his eyes for little ones, right? I mean, it's all about the good love anyway. So long as it doesn't get into being overly preachy and keeps it on a catchy feel good level, that's a message that is good for kids to hear, right? I'm still disappointed that it isn't more general kid songs and stories and stuff... I'd listen to a station like that, if just to let them be happier in the car when we go places (we're 45 minutes away from the nearest town of more than 4,000 people), which means an hour-and-a-half round trip just to get groceries.
Then, the dreaded chorus hits, and I am utterly blown away. The children's voices, singing sweetly, ramp up a bit and start in: "I am not descended from mon-keys...." My husband and I just stared at each other, then turned the radio off. What the hell is that? Why would you place such a heavy doctrinal decision in a kid's song? It's supposed to be all "Jesus Loves Me" and stuff at that age, not Creationism vs. Evolution. That's for later. They can deal with their own beliefs then, once they're old enough to actually have some experiences with which to form them.
Aside from the surreal horror I experienced, though, it does make me think about some things. See, although David and I are Christian and are trying to teach the children about God and Jesus, we aren't part of any church. David went to the Pentecostal services when he was in Basic training, but we haven't been to a church since then, and never since the kids were born. I have been thinking about finding a church again, but everything I see about them locally just turns me off. I hate the judgemental aspects of the Evangelical Protestant churches, which is most of what we have around here. I hate the assumption that one denomination's doctrine is superior to another's, and must needs condemn those poor folks to hell. I hate that a number of aspects about my chosen profession would be judged sight unseen by many otherwise good individuals around here, and I just don't have the strength right now to educate them. I'm not up to fighting that battle at this point in my life.
This leaves me unsure where to turn, or what else is available to me that my beliefs won't clash with too heavily. I admire the Catholic religion in a lot of ways, but I cannot accept that the Pope as the sole divine authority on Earth, so I think that removes me from the running for Catholic Convert of the Year. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and its presence on Earth, but I cannot reconcile that with the behavior I generally see in churches who are centered around those beliefs.
The other thing that troubles me is the question of when something changes from education to propaganda. At what point is it teaching my children my beliefs vs. indoctrinating them? I'm pretty sure the whole monkeys song is right over the line. VeggieTales sometimes treads a bit close to it for me, but I find myself unable to define the line well enough to find it with any regularity. If anyone can help me with this, I'd greatly appreciate it. Hearing some opinions might help clarify the issue in my mind.
So we're driving along, and I see this billboard ad for a radio station with a little happy-face sun on it and the slogan "just for kids." Since I have two small kids, I was immediately intrigued. I exchanged glances with my husband and we switched over to the station to give it a listen, to see if it would be appropriate for when we have to travel in the car with kiddies.
The first thing I hear is a group of children singing in chorus. A moment later, I realize it's a Christian station, and they're singing about Adam and how children are like him, all beloved by God and given life in the same way, etc. Now, I am Christian, so this doesn't bother me overly. I don't believe that the expression of God's beauty and power by man is only evident in things that praise God directly, though, so I tend to shy away from "music with a message" sorts of things as my sole listening pleasure. The occasional tape is one thing, but a whole radio station is generally just a case of way too much at any one time.
Still, there's nothing wrong in having nice little songs about God's love and children being special in his eyes for little ones, right? I mean, it's all about the good love anyway. So long as it doesn't get into being overly preachy and keeps it on a catchy feel good level, that's a message that is good for kids to hear, right? I'm still disappointed that it isn't more general kid songs and stories and stuff... I'd listen to a station like that, if just to let them be happier in the car when we go places (we're 45 minutes away from the nearest town of more than 4,000 people), which means an hour-and-a-half round trip just to get groceries.
Then, the dreaded chorus hits, and I am utterly blown away. The children's voices, singing sweetly, ramp up a bit and start in: "I am not descended from mon-keys...." My husband and I just stared at each other, then turned the radio off. What the hell is that? Why would you place such a heavy doctrinal decision in a kid's song? It's supposed to be all "Jesus Loves Me" and stuff at that age, not Creationism vs. Evolution. That's for later. They can deal with their own beliefs then, once they're old enough to actually have some experiences with which to form them.
Aside from the surreal horror I experienced, though, it does make me think about some things. See, although David and I are Christian and are trying to teach the children about God and Jesus, we aren't part of any church. David went to the Pentecostal services when he was in Basic training, but we haven't been to a church since then, and never since the kids were born. I have been thinking about finding a church again, but everything I see about them locally just turns me off. I hate the judgemental aspects of the Evangelical Protestant churches, which is most of what we have around here. I hate the assumption that one denomination's doctrine is superior to another's, and must needs condemn those poor folks to hell. I hate that a number of aspects about my chosen profession would be judged sight unseen by many otherwise good individuals around here, and I just don't have the strength right now to educate them. I'm not up to fighting that battle at this point in my life.
This leaves me unsure where to turn, or what else is available to me that my beliefs won't clash with too heavily. I admire the Catholic religion in a lot of ways, but I cannot accept that the Pope as the sole divine authority on Earth, so I think that removes me from the running for Catholic Convert of the Year. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and its presence on Earth, but I cannot reconcile that with the behavior I generally see in churches who are centered around those beliefs.
The other thing that troubles me is the question of when something changes from education to propaganda. At what point is it teaching my children my beliefs vs. indoctrinating them? I'm pretty sure the whole monkeys song is right over the line. VeggieTales sometimes treads a bit close to it for me, but I find myself unable to define the line well enough to find it with any regularity. If anyone can help me with this, I'd greatly appreciate it. Hearing some opinions might help clarify the issue in my mind.
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no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 06:24 pm (UTC)From:Religions exist to give people a support network ... [snippage for space]]
I think that if churches did that, they would be fantastic things. On paper, I think a church is great. It's like communism - on paper it works so well but once you introduce the human element, complete with all our foibles and failings, it starts to fall apart. Providing an environment for like-minded people, teaching them about the foundation of their beliefs to thereby strengthen them, to provide guidance and counsel, and so forth is excellent. I've just seen and heard of very few churches of that sort. Most, as you yourself said, are boring as hell.
Remember, a church service is intended for those who already believe, not those who don't.
Very true.
Sure, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. [[space saver]]
Well, I can certainly provide theories that could support the idea but since it isn't a belief I hold strongly it would purely be an exercise in conceptual thought rather than a debate of beliefs. I do feel, however, that for something like that, where there is enough of a foundation for the concept (hell, there are religions that are centered around the concept...), it is easy to provide all the answers to someone's questions. Maybe not answers that convince another person, but answers that reaffirm the questioned person's beliefs.
For me, religious beliefs are subject to rigorous questioning and appeals to things other than intuitive knowledge, even if they begin that way.
I agree because, invariable, some yahoo like me comes along and asks some stupid question that challenges your faith and beliefs. Or someone with their own set of (strong) religious beliefs comes along and a (hopefully) interesting discussion follows where one's beliefs are tested against the others.
My point is that appeals to intuition aren't enough. Neither is scientific knowledge. A more holistic approach is necessary when dealing with these matters.
Quick note about terms I use and what I mean with them: I view "faith" as personal beliefs. I view "religion" as a codification of those beliefs into a whole. I view "the church" as an organization being built around a religion. "A church" is the church down the street that you attend once a week.
I think that you're right - a religion grows in a holistic manner. Individual beliefs are formed, questioned, refined, revisited, and questioned again over time. To one degree or another, they need to survive the scrutiny of both scientific and intuitive questioning (maybe not to the satisfaction of the questionner but, at the very least, to the satisfaction of the questionned). For example, I can ask you to prove that God exists. You might answer with something like "look at my son and daughter - when I look at them I see proof of God." That answer may be enough proof for you while, for me, it just proves that you and Di got pregnant (*). It doesn't matter that your answer didn't convince me because it was sufficient for reaffirming your belief in your religion.
* Actually, for me it does prove that there's a higher power in the universe. I don't believe in god because I don't believe in an individual supreme being above all others. I do believe, however, that life is such an incredible thing that it cannot simply be the result of random chemicals and elements coming together. Some power beyond "this mortal coil" had a hand in the creation of life. Thus, the above is just an example for discussion, not an actual point of my beliefs because the answer of "look at my kids" would be enough to prove to me that some sort of higher power exists... :)
Man, I haven't thought about religion this much in a very, very, very long time...
no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 06:58 pm (UTC)From:A poor comparison in my book, because Communism didn't even work on paper unless you accepted the dubious labor theory of value, but I digress.
Providing an environment for like-minded people, teaching them about the foundation of their beliefs to thereby strengthen them, to provide guidance and counsel, and so forth is excellent. I've just seen and heard of very few churches of that sort. Most, as you yourself said, are boring as hell.
Remember, though, that that's not all the churches do, especially those based on the notion of efficacious rituals.
I do feel, however, that for something like that, where there is enough of a foundation for the concept (hell, there are religions that are centered around the concept...), it is easy to provide all the answers to someone's questions. Maybe not answers that convince another person, but answers that reaffirm the questioned person's beliefs.
I guess that's where the trouble starts for me. There are always foundational "leaps of faith" in all religions and these are largely exempt from rational critique. However, if one of these foundational elements obviously runs into basic problems -- such as the multiplication of souls in reincarnation -- I tend to look very unfavorably on the religion in question.
I agree because, invariable, some yahoo like me comes along and asks some stupid question that challenges your faith and beliefs. Or someone with their own set of (strong) religious beliefs comes along and a (hopefully) interesting discussion follows where one's beliefs are tested against the others.
I have never feared questioning, no matter what the source. Remember, I enjoy debating with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my door.
For example, I can ask you to prove that God exists. You might answer with something like "look at my son and daughter - when I look at them I see proof of God."
See, that kind of argument is just metaphorical and it's good as poetry but not as a debating point. If I wanted to prove the existence of God, I have a large selection of possible proofs that depend on logic and observation.
* Actually, for me it does prove that there's a higher power in the universe. I don't believe in god because I don't believe in an individual supreme being above all others.
Is this belief based on anything other than an intuition? That is, do you have any reason to believe it beyond the fact that you do?
I do believe, however, that life is such an incredible thing that it cannot simply be the result of random chemicals and elements coming together. Some power beyond "this mortal coil" had a hand in the creation of life.
This is the "argument from design" and is a popular one with many people. It has its points, but I've always found it only a few steps removed from the metaphor of "look at my kids." There's nothing inherent in life that demands there be a design at work, although I agree that the arrangement of the universe is highly suggestive of intelligent rather than random action.
no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 07:28 pm (UTC)From:Ah, but that is simply because you do not accept the answers provided. They do not fit with your vision of how the universe works and thus ring false. They don't work for you. There are elements of the Christian religion that don't work for me. There are fundamental leaps of faith that I think run into basic problems. That's why I don't consider myself Christian - there are leaps of faith I have been unable to make because they don't fundamentally work (for me).
I have never feared questioning, no matter what the source. Remember, I enjoy debating with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my door.
Yeah. I know. You do tend to enjoy the intellectual challenge. :)
Is this belief based on anything other than an intuition? That is, do you have any reason to believe it beyond the fact that you do?
My belief that there is something greater is largely intuitive. A feeling. Getting deep, it might be my desire for this to not be all there is to life. Or a heritage of my upbringing (my mother is religious and my grandparents (on her side) are quite religious). I'm not positive what the source of the belief is - I do know that there isn't one single event that formed the belief - nothing that I can point to and say "that is why I believe."
no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 07:56 pm (UTC)From:That's certainly true, but it's not the whole story. I also object to reincarnation because it is internally inconsistent. Whether it is consonant with my beliefs or even with reality isn't the issue so much as the fact that it contrtadicts itself. I think any foundational religious belief that does that is bogus.
There are elements of the Christian religion that don't work for me. There are fundamental leaps of faith that I think run into basic problems. That's why I don't consider myself Christian - there are leaps of faith I have been unable to make because they don't fundamentally work (for me).
You don't have to keep hedging your opinions like that. Even if you violently disagree with Christian dogma, I'm not bothered or offended.
My belief that there is something greater is largely intuitive. A feeling.
That's always seemed insufficient to me. I expect a bit more than that in discussing faith, because I'd say that at least half of all my particular beliefs are built upon a foundation of logic and observation rather than blind faith.
no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 08:15 pm (UTC)From:I appreciate that but I also know religion is one of those dangerous subjects of discussion. I may not offend you, but I may offend Michelle. Or someone else. Thus, I take the extra moment to be careful about my words...
That's always seemed insufficient to me. I expect a bit more than that in discussing faith, because I'd say that at least half of all my particular beliefs are built upon a foundation of logic and observation rather than blind faith.
I am honestly curious what the logical basis is for your belief in God (*). I do not think it is possible to have a logical belief in God - I think the believe in one supreme being must be a leap of faith with no foundation in logic. I could be wrong, but I do not think it is possible to logically believe in God. Honestly and sincerely, but not logically.
* Since I assume the cornerstone belief of your religion is one of the beliefs you have founded in logic and observation.
no subject
Date: 2003-06-18 09:26 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2003-06-19 10:14 am (UTC)From: