eurydicebound | An Enlightened Life

You know, I lead a pretty comfortable existence. I'm in a socially aware (for the most part) city that I love, I have intelligent friends who are worthwhile human beings, and I work in an job and industry whose entire purpose is to entertain others and make them happy (well, and make money, but that's a different issue). I have friends of whom I'm very fond, and we have a great deal of mutual respect. All in all, it's a very pleasant life -- almost pleasant enough to forget that there are plenty of assholes out there.

Well, at least until yesterday.

Upon seeing

iamnikchick's post, I realized that I had been sitting back waiting for someone else to say something. The ads she mentioned offended me as well, but I was waiting for someone else to comment. After kicking myself for a coward, I went to the boards, saw the three threads already in progress, and proceeded to not only offer Nicole my support in her request for an end to that particular advertising tactic, but also to let people know that the ads did offend me and that I would like to see them changed. I also posted in the main thread on the issue, the one I knew the advertiser was reading and in which he had requested comment if anyone was offended. The resulting flurry of posts probably added half again to my post count there.

In the 24 hours since in those threads, women who object to the use of objectifying images to sell items in banner ads have been sideways accused of being prudes, man-haters, and ugly/insecure about their looks on those boards -- not by the advertiser, although his response proves he utterly does not get why this is an issue, but by the members of the forum "rising to the defense" of said publisher. I was even the recipient of a personal attack under the guise of "analysis," something that's happened to me... oh, never, really, in the course of my time on message boards. I've literally never seen anything like it.

It's easy to forget sometimes... to think the bad old days are past, and that most of the fight for equality and respect is won. It's easy to believe that everyone thinks as you and your friends do. To believe that because you have a safe haven, everyone else does as well. As small as the stakes were here, it was enough to shake me out of my complacency a bit and remind me that there's always more to be done.

As it is, I'm pretty disillusioned with ENWorld right now. The mods took no action to address the concerns (except to be happy we weren't complaining to them, because that would be censorship), worried more about the effective volume of the discussion than the topics being discussed. It became clear that the opinions of the female board members were not something that would be seriously considered or listened to, and that makes me sad. The d20 community as a whole... well, I wish I could say I believed it was only an issue among a select few. I am seriously considering removing ENWorld from my list of sites that I visit based on this experience. Granted, my post count there has never been high, but I visited daily and contributed where I could, given industry status and general interest. It's a site I would have recommended to other women looking for information about d20 gaming. Not anymore.

And, as a footnote, I've never had problems like this on RPGnet. There's been issues regarding sexism among the forum population and there have been complaints from time to time, but the administration there has always made it clear that they felt those concerns were in their province and that they were willing to deal with it. They have female mods. On the whole, they are approachable when there's a sensitive issue. The "volume" can be a lot louder there and the discussions tend to run a bit rougher, but it isn't a boys club and I'm grateful for that. Ironic, isn't it?

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Fascinating, even as it's appalling. I haven't brought myself to go look, partly since I trust you and Nicole to be having a clearer perspective of the whole than I would anyways. It sounds like dropping out - hopefully with a farewell post explaining exactly why - would be a smart move.

Yeah, the behavior in that thread has been just appalling. Also worth noting is that although I specifically addressed the comments to our "peers" on the publishing side, only the EN Publishing guys have addressed the post (as they were the ones whose ad was meant to be taking a shot at the worst offender because of their own issue with his ads, they were hardly the problem). The Le, in specific, did not even bother to reply, instead leaving us to fend off the personal attacks of his "fans".

It's really easy for them to sit behind their anonymous, genderless computer screens and pretend that it's just one big boys club. How dare we burst their little bubble by pointing out that we're among them and maybe, just maybe, ought to be considered!

Ridiculous.

Thank you.

I just read through the three threads there in Meta concerning the topic. Good lord.

My favorite* part was where The Le asserted that those industry professionals where we offended were, in actuality, jealous. Some people have a tremendous amount of gall.

Joe

* read: not favorite.

It is also clear that Green Ronin should not ever hire me again, for my egregious abuses to the English language.

..asserted that those industry professionals who were offended were...

My kingdom for an Edit Button.

Regards,
Joseph

To your credit, Joe, you at least noticed and tried to correct your mistake, more than can be said for some.

Don't fret. Just try to assume the zen of LJ commenting, where mistakes are nothing but a natural expression of the beauty of the whole. :)

I never visit EN World -- never really felt a desire to, as my d20 interests are few and far between -- but this pretty much assures this status, except perhaps to protest as a female gamer and show solidarity.

I'd suggest that female gamers, female industry professionals and supporters institute a boycott, but because I'm unsure how many there are, I'm unsure as to how successful it'd be. Sadly, I don't think it would be, given what you've just said.

However, just to be snarky... should anyone on EN World dare to ask the question, "How do we get more women to game?", I'd link to the threads regarding the ads and say: "Don't objectify us."

I wonder how much uproar there would be if the same kind of tactic was used to sell something like Lace and Steel or Blue Rose, except using ripped-shirt, jock-stuffed Fabios instead of T&A.

Following the debacle, TheLe pulled the ads, only to replace them with ads featuring bare chested men, all with weapons and in fighting poses. The idea was to poke fun at the complaints, I'm sure, which really only pisses me off more. It also proves that he doesn't get why that is different from what he put originally. If I were better at photoshop, I'd google for some softcore gay porn and change out the images for cropped shots of guys looking intimately at the camera... or somewhere else. That's a far closer analog, and might actually convince some people. Probably not, but it's tempting regardless.

I just think it's sad that he doesn't get that if he'd put pics of women weather a leather bikini top actually using what might be a magic weapon as an image for a magic weapon book, he's still have the girly pics and no one would have complained.

Wow. Like you, I would've thought that this is a simple concept to explain, that someone would eventually get it. At the very least, making the ads relevent to the subject matter (and for all that I really don't like the Avalanche covers, they're at least that) would've been better or perhaps marginally acceptable.

It makes me honestly wonder just where the mental block occurs, that some folks just can't or won't understand. I've heard theories that it all boils down to issues of privilege; I think there's something to it, but it can't be all about that. Even some of the privileged, long ago and regarding totally different issues, have come to understand what was wrong with any given situation.

Since I'm the person who had to handle the Custserv e-mail and message board posts from all those guys who were threatened by the existence of Blue Rose, I can tell you exactly what kind of uproar there would be... OMG, don't even get me started on that one.

*nod* I figured it might be something like that. Folks staunchly defending The Le, though, I imagine defensively saying that they wouldn't mind. (Which is a big fat lie, of course.) Funny how it gets like that when the shoe's on the other foot, eh?

Wow, Michelle, I've got to give you credit. You held in there on the thread way longer than I would have.

Well, part of it was a general disbelief that this was actually happening, and that if I explained it sufficiently, surely they would get it. It wasn't a particularly difficult concept, to my mind. I was mistaken, mind you, but there you go.

For someone who has enough education for 8 people, judging by his claims, DonTadow sure is sub-literate.

Yeah, when he said he was 30, I found it hard to believe. He has the grammar skills of a 14 year old at best.

And really, I'd like to see the university where a couple of psych classes in pursuit of a sociology minor counts as "psych training." Mostly so I could point it out and make sure never to come within 50 miles of a graduate of that school, but nevertheless.

An email just sent to Moruss (ENWorld's current owner):

Until recently, I'd been feeling rather guilty about the fact that I wasn't a Community Supporter. After seeing the treatment of female posters in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=166106

You can rest assured that those plans are permanently scuttled. For all it's deserved reputation as a cess-pit, RPGnet would not and does not tolerate the sort of treatment of female posters. Given that the thread was started by a valued member of the d20 industry and garnered such a horrid, sexist, "boys club" response, is just appalling.

Most of the time, I consider myself proud to be a gamer. Today isn't one of those days.

Shame on ENWorld.

Theron Bretz
Houston, TX

ENWorld User Name: Theron

To his credit, Russell replied. To my utter lack of comprehension, his answer was simply, "OK"

Not sure what to make of it, really, other than nothing is going to change.

Pretty much. *hug*

Well, once the guy decided to jump in and give me some "Biblical advice" to "Judge not, yet ye be judged" because "This has gone too far" I decided to actually ask them to pretty please step in and lock that thing down. I'm not too hot on threats, nor taking friendly "biblical advice" from hostile guys ready to blame me for all sorts of shit I never said.

Unbelievable.

That disgusts me, but this is one of the main reasons I no longer visit forums as a general rule. I just got tired of being constantly angry at RPG.net, and had been warned off of ENWorld from the start. Though I did just get a logon to Dumpshock so I can figure out some of the new Shadowrun IV stuff.

While Dumpshock has its own levels of flamey, it's pretty much all game related. They got rid of their version of Tangency a long time ago, and they don't accept ads. There are a number of women posting there as well as a number in the administration, and they don't put up with crap. Needless to say, I've been to worse places.

Hrm.... Ok, I'm not going to go read the forums, I'll trust that you're not being hysterical on this. While I probably disagree, we've always had pretty civil discusions/debates and you still talk to me afterwards, which is a pretty good indication that the posters in question were neanderthals.

On the advertisment's themselves....

1. Sex sells. That's a simple fact. Turn on any TV, you'll see that.

2. I think saying it's offensive is an over reaction, but hey that's your right. More power to you.

3. Is that really the best they can do? I agree with Nik's Chick, "Classy." While I won't deny that I generally make an extra pass by booths that feature "booth babes", I've never actually stop to look at their products. If for no other reason then I don't want to be seen as being swayed by that type of advertising, so in fact their marketing ploy is back firing. ;)

4. I say boycott the companies and ENworld. It's the proper response when any entity does something you don't like.

I neither read ENworld, nor buy the products of the companies in question, so can't help you on part 3.

To respond....

1) Yep. And oddly, I'm in favor of sex, generally speaking. This isn't about sex. Show me an ad with a scantily dressed woman kicking butt (especially for a book about kicking butt), and you'll hear nary a complaint from me. Show me an ad focusing on a woman's breasts for a book about magic items, of showing a closeup for a woman's partly open mouth in advertising a book about magic weapons, and I'm going to be annoyed unless it's really, really clever. These made no attempt to be clever, for the most part.

As I mentioned there, it's true that this is rampant throughout advertising -- specifically in advertising targeted at men, but not without it's presence elsewhere as well. This is effectively my backyard, though. I cannot effect national change in Budwieser's commercials. I can say something here.

2) That's cool. When you're a girl next time around, you can decide if you feel offended then. Alternatively, if you wish to determine what would offend you, I'm sure I could photoshop up an equivalent bovine image and you can see what you think. *grin*

3) Yep, pretty much.

4) Boycotts do make a statement, but are rarely effective. Still, I guess it's better than nothing. I'll take it under consideration.

This isn't about sex.

Well, I have to disagree. The book isn't about sex, but by "sex sells" I mean that "sex sells other stuff". Hot babes in budweiser commercials sell more budweiser. In theory at least, and it must be true because budweiser tastes like shit.

Alternatively, if you wish to determine what would offend you, I'm sure I could photoshop up an equivalent bovine image and you can see what you think.

Eh, I'm generally not offended by things that don't involve death and suffering.

Boycotts do make a statement, but are rarely effective.

Yes and no. Companies do things, especially marketing things, for only one reason - money. If you demonstrate that the marketing technique is ineffective, or perhaps even counter productive, they might change.

As for ENworld, all you can really do is pick up and leave. When people aren't doing illegal things, the only power you have is the worth of yourself. So does ENworld care if you stop coming? What about Nik's Chick? How about all the other women?

If the answer is no, unfortuantly you're just wasting your time. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but people only change when they have something to lose.

Well, I have to disagree. The book isn't about sex, but by "sex sells" I mean that "sex sells other stuff". Hot babes in budweiser commercials sell more budweiser. In theory at least, and it must be true because budweiser tastes like shit.

No no. My particular issue isn't about sex. We're off to a grand start, aren't we? It's not that sex or the use of sexy images necessarily offend me. It's just... I really object to people in the industry I work in, in a place I'm supposed to be welcome, deciding that it's okay take the image of a woman and reduce it to a thing -- not a person, but some bit of sexual innuendo that'll get a guy to click through. If it were a workplace, it would be sexual harassment -- and since it is my workplace, in a way, it makes me uncomfortable. It's very possible to use ads that show sexy women as women, as characters, as potential customers. It's possible to use sex and yet not squick out your female customers -- but that assumes that you recognize that women could be and are your customers, and thus are worth your time. I don't take offence easily -- and really, offended might be an incorrect term for what I feel. Pissed off is far closer, followed by faintly horrified and "uncomfortable." However, the request for feedback in question indicated that if the ads offened anyone, he'd take them down. Therefore, it translates closely enough into "offended." But regardless, it doesn't happen easily.

Eh, I'm generally not offended by things that don't involve death and suffering.
That was a joke! It involved a cow! How could you miss that?

Yes and no. Companies do things, especially marketing things, for only one reason - money. If you demonstrate that the marketing technique is ineffective, or perhaps even counter productive, they might change.

As for ENworld, all you can really do is pick up and leave. When people aren't doing illegal things, the only power you have is the worth of yourself. So does ENworld care if you stop coming? What about Nik's Chick? How about all the other women?

True. I was thinking of "boycott" as "organized effort to avoid using a sertain product or service." And the quick answer to the question is "no." Or rather, I think they'd care if Nicole and Pramas stopped showing up, as Green Ronin is a staple of the d20 world. ENWorld, though, is not interested particularly in doing anything more than make sure no one curses or gets too excitable during discussions. They would not miss me whatsoever.

and reduce it to a thing -- not a person, but some bit of sexual innuendo that'll get a guy to click through.

Oh my. Well now, you're talking about taking on society as a whole. You can't logically expect the gaming community to be any better then society as a whole, and frankly I would expect it to be less given the higher concentration of socially inept little boys.

Disclaimer: Not saying it's right, just that this is the way it is. Try to change it by all means, just don't stress out over it.

-- but that assumes that you recognize that women could be and are your customers, and thus are worth your time.

Is it worth their time? It's obvious that they're not really interested in sinking money into actually developing quality marketing strategies. I doubt they're actually investing any money in "marketing", so I'd question that it would be worth their time. Not saying that women don't game, nor that women don't buy products. But would their sales actually increase more then the cost to develop marketing strategies targeted at women?

ENWorld, though, is not interested particularly in doing anything more than make sure no one curses or gets too excitable during discussions.

Then I suggest you not get upset about it. Not that I'm telling you to "shut up and get over it" per sey, but if they don't care, what can you do about it? If you can't actually do anything about it, then sitting around being mad about it just hurts you.

I say write them off as ass monkeys, and just plan to poison their drink if you ever get a chance. ;)

And yet there are places where it is better, so it's not a global phenomenon. Just because some people are complete assholes doesn't mean you can't ask them to rein in their behavior in public.

As to marketing strategies, I'm not convinced it would actually cost them anything more, other than the time required to think about it and give a shit. It's really sad/funny in a way, because the industry complains daily about how they have to increase the market and get more buyers. Yet when you look at the demographics, they're ignoring a growing segment of the market -- or worse, excluding them. There are ways to appeal to both and advertisers have been using them for years. I mean, putting pics of sexy women kicking butt would do it. Putting a pic of a cute gamer girl and a blurb saying she likes it would do it. Then you have Sex + treating as a person = cha-ching! Given that gamer girls aren't nearly so scarce as they once were, you'd think a publisher could find someone willing to pose for a picture.

Well, the upset happened when I thought I could do something about it. As it was, I and others did do something -- and then dealt with the fallout from that, which pissed me off further. At this point it's not about the publisher or the ads, as that situation has been resolved. It is about whether or not I feel comfortable continuing to spend time there, given the sheer amount of crazed vitriol from members of the users and the lack of any meaningful response from the admins in the face of it. Granted, I can work up to mad again if necessary, but mostly at this point it's just... a whole lot of disappointment, really.

The "write off as ass monkeys" direction is pretty much the way it's going to be. It just makes me sad that it ended up going there.

As to marketing strategies, I'm not convinced it would actually cost them anything more

Extra work always costs more, but now we're getting off onto a marketing/economics tangent.

It's really sad/funny in a way, because the industry complains daily about how they have to increase the market and get more buyers.

Has anyone thought about putting out quality products? I mean that SR4 thing those FanPro folks put out was utter crap. ;)

a whole lot of disappointment, really.

*wuffles*

The "write off as ass monkeys" direction is pretty much the way it's going to be.

Aww.... come on, you know you want to poison them. ;)

Aah Jesus, there I wasliking Enworld and all. Are we never safe? It's sad that someone who gets "it" and is widely hero-worshipped like Monte Cook or Erik Mona doesn't weigh in.

Although I understand yours and Nicole's position and even support it to a certain extent, Morrus has pretty much made it clear that there will be no changes made. Furthermore, the publicity regarding the threads has only served to bolster Le Games' stature and awareness within that community. Refusing to support EN World or Le Games is one way to voice your objections. Although knowing Morrus, he simply doesn't care if 10-20 people quit visiting or supporting the site because of his decisions to let the ads in question stand. I suspect he also wouldn't give a damn if Green Ronin very publicly announced that they were withdrawing all support from the site. It would take a lot more to create a ripple effect that would institute a change of the caliber that is necessary and even having Monte or Erik weigh in likely wouldn't do any good.

I'm aware of this. Still, it bears pointing out, don't you think? Even if stating that we did find it troublesome doesn't change the environment, it might at least have given some people something to think about. There are lots of people who aren't assholes. Sometimes we all do things that we don't realize might be a problem for someone else nearby. Unless they say something and let us know it's a problem, what incentive do we have to change our behavior?

Sooner or later, this was bound to come up. There are more and more women who are taking up this hobby -- the gender mix is shifting. I'm not sorry it's coming up now rather than later regardless of the effective change made at this time.

I agree it was worth pointing out and it might even make someone give pause before making a purchase, but I doubt in the big picture it will result in much if any change. Still wars are won one battle at a time and maybe this skirmish will result in a small win.

"There are more and more women who are taking up this hobby -- the gender mix is shifting."

Are there?

Pardon me while I highjack that concept to my LJ for discussion (rather than highjack your LJ).

Looking at the different ads, I don't find them offensive, I just find them sad.

But looking at the discussion on ENWorld about the ads, that's where the offensive starts to kick in.

Spike Y Jones

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eurydicebound

March 2013

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