eurydicebound | (no subject)

Okay, so yesterday evening I was out in the car with the husband, doing some shopping in Wichita Falls, TX. Got in a check, paid some bills, it's all good, right?

So we're driving along, and I see this billboard ad for a radio station with a little happy-face sun on it and the slogan "just for kids." Since I have two small kids, I was immediately intrigued. I exchanged glances with my husband and we switched over to the station to give it a listen, to see if it would be appropriate for when we have to travel in the car with kiddies.

The first thing I hear is a group of children singing in chorus. A moment later, I realize it's a Christian station, and they're singing about Adam and how children are like him, all beloved by God and given life in the same way, etc. Now, I am Christian, so this doesn't bother me overly. I don't believe that the expression of God's beauty and power by man is only evident in things that praise God directly, though, so I tend to shy away from "music with a message" sorts of things as my sole listening pleasure. The occasional tape is one thing, but a whole radio station is generally just a case of way too much at any one time.

Still, there's nothing wrong in having nice little songs about God's love and children being special in his eyes for little ones, right? I mean, it's all about the good love anyway. So long as it doesn't get into being overly preachy and keeps it on a catchy feel good level, that's a message that is good for kids to hear, right? I'm still disappointed that it isn't more general kid songs and stories and stuff... I'd listen to a station like that, if just to let them be happier in the car when we go places (we're 45 minutes away from the nearest town of more than 4,000 people), which means an hour-and-a-half round trip just to get groceries.

Then, the dreaded chorus hits, and I am utterly blown away. The children's voices, singing sweetly, ramp up a bit and start in: "I am not descended from mon-keys...." My husband and I just stared at each other, then turned the radio off. What the hell is that? Why would you place such a heavy doctrinal decision in a kid's song? It's supposed to be all "Jesus Loves Me" and stuff at that age, not Creationism vs. Evolution. That's for later. They can deal with their own beliefs then, once they're old enough to actually have some experiences with which to form them.

Aside from the surreal horror I experienced, though, it does make me think about some things. See, although David and I are Christian and are trying to teach the children about God and Jesus, we aren't part of any church. David went to the Pentecostal services when he was in Basic training, but we haven't been to a church since then, and never since the kids were born. I have been thinking about finding a church again, but everything I see about them locally just turns me off. I hate the judgemental aspects of the Evangelical Protestant churches, which is most of what we have around here. I hate the assumption that one denomination's doctrine is superior to another's, and must needs condemn those poor folks to hell. I hate that a number of aspects about my chosen profession would be judged sight unseen by many otherwise good individuals around here, and I just don't have the strength right now to educate them. I'm not up to fighting that battle at this point in my life.

This leaves me unsure where to turn, or what else is available to me that my beliefs won't clash with too heavily. I admire the Catholic religion in a lot of ways, but I cannot accept that the Pope as the sole divine authority on Earth, so I think that removes me from the running for Catholic Convert of the Year. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and its presence on Earth, but I cannot reconcile that with the behavior I generally see in churches who are centered around those beliefs.

The other thing that troubles me is the question of when something changes from education to propaganda. At what point is it teaching my children my beliefs vs. indoctrinating them? I'm pretty sure the whole monkeys song is right over the line. VeggieTales sometimes treads a bit close to it for me, but I find myself unable to define the line well enough to find it with any regularity. If anyone can help me with this, I'd greatly appreciate it. Hearing some opinions might help clarify the issue in my mind.

Current Mood: bemused
Current Music: "i am not descended from mon-keys" spinning in my head

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But why should religion be treated differently than any other type of knowledge? You seem to be claiming that religion is, by necessity, beyond proof and therefore no one can know the truth. But that's true of many elements of, say, astrophysics too. Do you not believe in black holes because no one has ever been to one, let alone experienced what it's like to be drawn over its event horizon?

You appear to be favoring "scientific" knowledge over other types because it can be shown to be true before your eyes. Is that right?

Get the feeling Michelle is regretting bringing this up... :)

Yes, I do have a scientific approach to the issue. I want proof before I believe. That is why I view religion as faith - it is belief without proof. It is pure belief.

I believe in black holes because they have been proven. There are aspects about them that we are still learning (for example, some things can escape black holes) but that is the way of learning - new truths are discovered regularly. The world is flat! Oh, wait, it's round... But it's the center of the universe! Oh, wait, it's actually pretty far from the center of the universe... There is no life in outer space! Oh, wait... Microbe were found on Mars... Knowledge is a fluid thing, obviously. Facts today can become falsehoods tomorrow.

Religion, in my opinion, can never fall into the realm of knowledge. It is always going to remain in the realm of faith. It can never be knowledge because there can be no proofs nor falsehoods. It is always going to be belief without proof. Well, we might have proof but not while we live... :)

In short, tell me what you know about "The Truth." Don't tell me what you believe, tell me what you know - what you can prove. The only thing you can tell me is that you believe - that you have faith. That you can prove - you can prove you have beliefs. Everything else is faith in those beliefs. Thus, to you, that belief is true because your faith is true. Facts don't matter because your faith is not founded in facts. It is founded in one thing and one thing alone - your beliefs.

Heck, I've never had this many replies, and I find the discussion quite absorbing. Don't stop on my account. :)

In the interest of saving Michelle's comments from a lengthy disputation on epistemology, I'll have to end here. Suffice it to say I think you place to much -- dare I say? -- faith in the reliability of scientific knowledge and too little on intuitive knowledge. That said, I cannot on your terms prove to you almost anything about my own beliefs.

(continuing only because Michelle said we could :)

I think you misunderstand (which I blame on a conversation of this degree being had over the 'net while I'm at work... :) - I place an enormous amount of weight, regarding faith and religion, on intuitive knowledge. I believe than one's entire religious/faith/spiritual belief is based entirely on their own intuitive knowledge. That is the precise reason why I have a problem with a church and, to a lesser degree, a relegion. I do not think anyone else can tell me what I have faith in because nobody else can know what I intuitively know. How can a priest tell me what I should believe in? Am I to trust his intuitive knowledge over mine? Am I to accept his beliefs when my own intuitive knowledge may be telling me something different? That is why I believe that the church has no place in dictating one's faiths and beliefs. Each person should form his or her own beliefs based on what they know - what they sense is "The Truth." They can't prove it but they believe it. They have faith in it because it is what they sense is right. Not because the church told them it's right - because they sense it in their soul.

I know, you're probably thinking we're dancing in a circle now... :)

Because each person has their own, individual instinctive beliefs, each person is right in regards to their beliefs. Your beliefs have no bearing nor impact on my beliefs. They can be totally in opposition but they work for each of us because they are ours. My beliefs are right because they give me strength and yours are right because they give you strength. And the church has no place in directing those beliefs.

All, obviously, in my humble opinion. :)

I place an enormous amount of weight, regarding faith and religion, on intuitive knowledge. I believe than one's entire religious/faith/spiritual belief is based entirely on their own intuitive knowledge. That is the precise reason why I have a problem with a church and, to a lesser degree, a relegion. I do not think anyone else can tell me what I have faith in because nobody else can know what I intuitively know.

Well, sure, but it doesn't follow that all intuitive knowledge is correct. We often make mistakes.

How can a priest tell me what I should believe in?

Who said they did? I detect a faint anti-authoritarian streak in your critiques of religion.

Am I to trust his intuitive knowledge over mine? Am I to accept his beliefs when my own intuitive knowledge may be telling me something different?

Unless the church is really funky, that's not what the priest is doing. Indeed, he shouldn't be doing that at all. A priest is there to provide you with the collective experience of the Church over 2000 years, as well as insights into what it believes to be divine revelation. You can accept it or reject as you wish, but understand that religion isn't just "a priest's opinion."

That is why I believe that the church has no place in dictating one's faiths and beliefs. Each person should form his or her own beliefs based on what they know - what they sense is "The Truth."

Again, the anti-authoritarianism of your position shows itself. More importantly, though, how does one judge the veracity of one's beliefs. At what point does a personal belief go over the edge into madness? Where do you draw the line between opinions and personal beliefs? There must be a standard by which you judge whether a belief is possibly valid or just crazy.

Because each person has their own, individual instinctive beliefs, each person is right in regards to their beliefs. Your beliefs have no bearing nor impact on my beliefs. They can be totally in opposition but they work for each of us because they are ours. My beliefs are right because they give me strength and yours are right because they give you strength. And the church has no place in directing those beliefs.

This is far more psychological an interpretation of belief than the one I hold. Do you think, then, that a person who derives strength from his belief that, say, Keanu Reeves is the Messiah and The Matrix is a secret religious text is sane? Neither you nor I can prove he's wrong, especially if his conception of "Messiah" is properly worded. But I suspect you and I both would think he's insane or at least deluded. Given that, on what basis do you make that judgment?

Well, sure, but it doesn't follow that all intuitive knowledge is correct. We often make mistakes.

Exactly.

Who said they did? I detect a faint anti-authoritarian streak in your critiques of religion.

Whatever do you mean? [innocent grin]

Ok, as I said before, I very, very rarely go to church, but most of my experiences have involved "the church" telling people what beliefs they should hold, spiritually. As always, there are exceptions, but from my observations (*), churches often direct and guide the "acceptable" beliefs of their flock.

* Admittedly, I don't follow church issues closely because of my dislike of churches so I do admit freely that my observations are highly limited.

Unless the church is really funky, that's not what the priest is doing. Indeed, he shouldn't be doing that at all. A priest is there to provide you with the collective experience of the Church over 2000 years, as well as insights into what it believes to be divine revelation.

Again, that hasn't been my experience in the services I've attended. I can think of one in my memory which was enjoyable and not "preachy." All others felt like I was being told what to believe and what not to believe. Entirely possible that was just my anti-church views tainting the services, but...

Again, the anti-authoritarianism of your position shows itself.

Whoops. Sorry. Hate it when that slips out... :)

More importantly, though, how does one judge the veracity of one's beliefs. At what point does a personal belief go over the edge into madness? Where do you draw the line between opinions and personal beliefs? There must be a standard by which you judge whether a belief is possibly valid or just crazy.

Intuitive knowledge. You know a belief is a load of shit when you see it.

This is far more psychological an interpretation of belief than the one I hold. Do you think, then, that a person who derives strength from his belief that, say, Keanu Reeves is the Messiah and The Matrix is a secret religious text is sane? Neither you nor I can prove he's wrong, especially if his conception of "Messiah" is properly worded. But I suspect you and I both would think he's insane or at least deluded. Given that, on what basis do you make that judgment?

Are you trying to say Keanu isn't The One?...

Seriously, it falls back to the intuitive knowledge. One should intuitively know that a belief like that is simply the insane ramblings of an idiot. The belief that the soul reincarnates, however, does have an intuitive resonance that makes it possible. One may not believe in it (and some may think it is a similar load of crap as Keanu being "The One...") but there's enough spiritual ... evidence (for lack of a better word) that the reincarnation of the soul is a possibility. Most people who hold some spiritual belief agree, to one extent or another, that the soul is eternal. Does it move on to a higher (or lower...) place or does it come back for another kick at the can? Who knows, but if you believe that the soul lives on beyond the mortal coil, you can at least accept the theory that both options are possible. Thus, intuitively, both seem as right and as wrong as the other. And intuitively we know Keanu isn't "The One."

Neve Campbell is The One.

For me...

What??

Ok, as I said before, I very, very rarely go to church, but most of my experiences have involved "the church" telling people what beliefs they should hold, spiritually. As always, there are exceptions, but from my observations (*), churches often direct and guide the "acceptable" beliefs of their flock.

How is this bad exactly? Religions exist to give people a support network to hold true to a set of beliefs that they've come to accept as true, as well as to expand upon those beliefs through reflection and prayer. Plus, in many cases, religions provide something else: access to rituals that many people believe are efficacious in aiding one's spiritual development. Seems to me it's the duty of those who devote their lives to ministry to remind believers of what they believe and why they believe them.

Again, that hasn't been my experience in the services I've attended. I can think of one in my memory which was enjoyable and not "preachy." All others felt like I was being told what to believe and what not to believe. Entirely possible that was just my anti-church views tainting the services, but...

Remember, a church service is intended for those who already believe, not those who don't. It's a reminder and often an expansion of beliefs the congregation already holds in common. I suspect it'd be rare that anyone who comes to a Mass, for example, and who didn't already believe would be converted by the experience.

Seriously, it falls back to the intuitive knowledge. One should intuitively know that a belief like that is simply the insane ramblings of an idiot. The belief that the soul reincarnates, however, does have an intuitive resonance that makes it possible.

Sure, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. For example, there are now more people alive than there ever were in all the previous ages of human history combined. Where then are all the extra souls coming from? Do we each only get part of a soul or are new souls being created all the time? If the latter, how is that different than what I believe? For me, religious beliefs are subject to rigorous questioning and appeals to things other than intuitive knowledge, even if they begin that way.

My point is that appeals to intuition aren't enough. Neither is scientific knowledge. A more holistic approach is necessary when dealing with these matters.

I hate LJ's reply size limit...

Religions exist to give people a support network ... [snippage for space]]

I think that if churches did that, they would be fantastic things. On paper, I think a church is great. It's like communism - on paper it works so well but once you introduce the human element, complete with all our foibles and failings, it starts to fall apart. Providing an environment for like-minded people, teaching them about the foundation of their beliefs to thereby strengthen them, to provide guidance and counsel, and so forth is excellent. I've just seen and heard of very few churches of that sort. Most, as you yourself said, are boring as hell.

Remember, a church service is intended for those who already believe, not those who don't.

Very true.

Sure, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. [[space saver]]

Well, I can certainly provide theories that could support the idea but since it isn't a belief I hold strongly it would purely be an exercise in conceptual thought rather than a debate of beliefs. I do feel, however, that for something like that, where there is enough of a foundation for the concept (hell, there are religions that are centered around the concept...), it is easy to provide all the answers to someone's questions. Maybe not answers that convince another person, but answers that reaffirm the questioned person's beliefs.

For me, religious beliefs are subject to rigorous questioning and appeals to things other than intuitive knowledge, even if they begin that way.

I agree because, invariable, some yahoo like me comes along and asks some stupid question that challenges your faith and beliefs. Or someone with their own set of (strong) religious beliefs comes along and a (hopefully) interesting discussion follows where one's beliefs are tested against the others.

My point is that appeals to intuition aren't enough. Neither is scientific knowledge. A more holistic approach is necessary when dealing with these matters.

Quick note about terms I use and what I mean with them: I view "faith" as personal beliefs. I view "religion" as a codification of those beliefs into a whole. I view "the church" as an organization being built around a religion. "A church" is the church down the street that you attend once a week.

I think that you're right - a religion grows in a holistic manner. Individual beliefs are formed, questioned, refined, revisited, and questioned again over time. To one degree or another, they need to survive the scrutiny of both scientific and intuitive questioning (maybe not to the satisfaction of the questionner but, at the very least, to the satisfaction of the questionned). For example, I can ask you to prove that God exists. You might answer with something like "look at my son and daughter - when I look at them I see proof of God." That answer may be enough proof for you while, for me, it just proves that you and Di got pregnant (*). It doesn't matter that your answer didn't convince me because it was sufficient for reaffirming your belief in your religion.

* Actually, for me it does prove that there's a higher power in the universe. I don't believe in god because I don't believe in an individual supreme being above all others. I do believe, however, that life is such an incredible thing that it cannot simply be the result of random chemicals and elements coming together. Some power beyond "this mortal coil" had a hand in the creation of life. Thus, the above is just an example for discussion, not an actual point of my beliefs because the answer of "look at my kids" would be enough to prove to me that some sort of higher power exists... :)

Man, I haven't thought about religion this much in a very, very, very long time...

On paper, I think a church is great. It's like communism - on paper it works so well but once you introduce the human element, complete with all our foibles and failings, it starts to fall apart.

A poor comparison in my book, because Communism didn't even work on paper unless you accepted the dubious labor theory of value, but I digress.

Providing an environment for like-minded people, teaching them about the foundation of their beliefs to thereby strengthen them, to provide guidance and counsel, and so forth is excellent. I've just seen and heard of very few churches of that sort. Most, as you yourself said, are boring as hell.

Remember, though, that that's not all the churches do, especially those based on the notion of efficacious rituals.

I do feel, however, that for something like that, where there is enough of a foundation for the concept (hell, there are religions that are centered around the concept...), it is easy to provide all the answers to someone's questions. Maybe not answers that convince another person, but answers that reaffirm the questioned person's beliefs.

I guess that's where the trouble starts for me. There are always foundational "leaps of faith" in all religions and these are largely exempt from rational critique. However, if one of these foundational elements obviously runs into basic problems -- such as the multiplication of souls in reincarnation -- I tend to look very unfavorably on the religion in question.

I agree because, invariable, some yahoo like me comes along and asks some stupid question that challenges your faith and beliefs. Or someone with their own set of (strong) religious beliefs comes along and a (hopefully) interesting discussion follows where one's beliefs are tested against the others.

I have never feared questioning, no matter what the source. Remember, I enjoy debating with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my door.

For example, I can ask you to prove that God exists. You might answer with something like "look at my son and daughter - when I look at them I see proof of God."

See, that kind of argument is just metaphorical and it's good as poetry but not as a debating point. If I wanted to prove the existence of God, I have a large selection of possible proofs that depend on logic and observation.

* Actually, for me it does prove that there's a higher power in the universe. I don't believe in god because I don't believe in an individual supreme being above all others.

Is this belief based on anything other than an intuition? That is, do you have any reason to believe it beyond the fact that you do?

I do believe, however, that life is such an incredible thing that it cannot simply be the result of random chemicals and elements coming together. Some power beyond "this mortal coil" had a hand in the creation of life.

This is the "argument from design" and is a popular one with many people. It has its points, but I've always found it only a few steps removed from the metaphor of "look at my kids." There's nothing inherent in life that demands there be a design at work, although I agree that the arrangement of the universe is highly suggestive of intelligent rather than random action.

I guess that's where the trouble starts for me. There are always foundational "leaps of faith" in all religions and these are largely exempt from rational critique. However, if one of these foundational elements obviously runs into basic problems -- such as the multiplication of souls in reincarnation -- I tend to look very unfavorably on the religion in question.

Ah, but that is simply because you do not accept the answers provided. They do not fit with your vision of how the universe works and thus ring false. They don't work for you. There are elements of the Christian religion that don't work for me. There are fundamental leaps of faith that I think run into basic problems. That's why I don't consider myself Christian - there are leaps of faith I have been unable to make because they don't fundamentally work (for me).

I have never feared questioning, no matter what the source. Remember, I enjoy debating with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my door.

Yeah. I know. You do tend to enjoy the intellectual challenge. :)

Is this belief based on anything other than an intuition? That is, do you have any reason to believe it beyond the fact that you do?

My belief that there is something greater is largely intuitive. A feeling. Getting deep, it might be my desire for this to not be all there is to life. Or a heritage of my upbringing (my mother is religious and my grandparents (on her side) are quite religious). I'm not positive what the source of the belief is - I do know that there isn't one single event that formed the belief - nothing that I can point to and say "that is why I believe."

Ah, but that is simply because you do not accept the answers provided. They do not fit with your vision of how the universe works and thus ring false. They don't work for you.

That's certainly true, but it's not the whole story. I also object to reincarnation because it is internally inconsistent. Whether it is consonant with my beliefs or even with reality isn't the issue so much as the fact that it contrtadicts itself. I think any foundational religious belief that does that is bogus.

There are elements of the Christian religion that don't work for me. There are fundamental leaps of faith that I think run into basic problems. That's why I don't consider myself Christian - there are leaps of faith I have been unable to make because they don't fundamentally work (for me).

You don't have to keep hedging your opinions like that. Even if you violently disagree with Christian dogma, I'm not bothered or offended.

My belief that there is something greater is largely intuitive. A feeling.

That's always seemed insufficient to me. I expect a bit more than that in discussing faith, because I'd say that at least half of all my particular beliefs are built upon a foundation of logic and observation rather than blind faith.

You don't have to keep hedging your opinions like that. Even if you violently disagree with Christian dogma, I'm not bothered or offended.

I appreciate that but I also know religion is one of those dangerous subjects of discussion. I may not offend you, but I may offend Michelle. Or someone else. Thus, I take the extra moment to be careful about my words...

That's always seemed insufficient to me. I expect a bit more than that in discussing faith, because I'd say that at least half of all my particular beliefs are built upon a foundation of logic and observation rather than blind faith.

I am honestly curious what the logical basis is for your belief in God (*). I do not think it is possible to have a logical belief in God - I think the believe in one supreme being must be a leap of faith with no foundation in logic. I could be wrong, but I do not think it is possible to logically believe in God. Honestly and sincerely, but not logically.

* Since I assume the cornerstone belief of your religion is one of the beliefs you have founded in logic and observation.

oh, I'm not going to be offended. Don't mind me. You might make your next reply a reply to the original message, though, so you don't end up with a 1 inch wide message. :)